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June 09, 2012

Comments

Iain

I find this objectionable, I don't care for this collective grand standing that one would expect from a totalitarian regime, but I suppose where political correctness is concerned we do live in a totalitarian state.

lewis

I would expect neo-nazis to find this objectionable, but very few others.

Well done England.

robert

The Germans murdered 6 million Jews and many thousands were murdered in Auschwitz.
All credit to the England football team for recognising that this organised massacre of men women and children will never be forgotten.
What I do not understand is the football racism in Poland even if it is a monority group.

Dave Hollins MBA

This is just grandstanding - because it is used by Israel and its apologists for the despicable treatment of the Palestinians. It is no better than Blair creating "Holocaust Day" to suck up to the UK Jewish vote and then telling the Armenians to get lost when they mentioned that they had been similarly treated by his chums, the Turks. There are too many agendas wrapped up in this to the extent that many UK youngsters think we fought WW2 to save the Jews.

It does raise an interesting point about political responsibility as Hitler never ordered the camps as such. He set policy by saying he wanted rid of the Jews, gays, Communists and others at a time when they could not be shipped out as had happened a few years before. Heydrich and his chums developed the camps, believing they were doing "the will of the Fuhrer". I often think about this when I hear politicians and others denying responsibility for something some minion actually did.

robert

Dave Hollins MBA - you need help.

It doesn't add up...

This is relevant to Conservatives how? Or is it just Tim's Football and Israel fetish combining?

robert

it doesn't add up - Surely this is relevant - Conservatives would make a visit to Auschwitz if they were in Poland and nearby.
Conservatives are no different to any other decent people who recognise the atrocities of Auschwitz and ensure that younger people like the England football team were made aware of what happened in Europe's recent history only 70 years ago.

Gary Farrimond

The ruins of Auschwitz are more than a memorial they are a warning. While there is political intolerance, religious bigotry, racial prejudice the ruins are a warning. They are a warning that we all have a responsibilty to see that no one builds another Ausctwitz.

Gary Farrimond

David Hollins MBA, I refer you to a work called 'Telling Lies about Hitler' by Richard L Evans, further there is an episode of 'World at War' where an interview of Albert Speer pleads ignorance of the death camps, this interview is sandwiched between interviews of Emmi Bonhoeffer and Christabel Bielenberg 2 ordinary citizens who did know the truth of re-settlement and the death camps and yet a Minister in Hitlers regime pleaded ignorance! Was he deaf, dumb, blind? to what was going on around him?

Hitler was no more unaware of what was going on toward Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals/Political opponents/Jehovahs Witnesses and countless others in the death camps than his orders to destroy Warsaw/Paris, attack Russia or produce policies to drive the Jews out of public life and marginalise them.

Paris Claims

Will they be paying homage to those that perished in the Holodomor when they visit the Ukraine?
I doubt it.

robert

I am shocked that some Conservatives posting on here give the impression that they hate Jews.
I am also shocked that these people find an issue with young men doing the right thing.
If the Conservative Party took any notice of these disgraceful individuals then the party would never be elected again.

Nadine Horrors

Robert

The Tories have always had objectionable neo-nazis and racists within it. The fact that they post on here confirms it. In my opinion the antics of the uber-right have long been hidden or dismissed by the powers that be at Smith Square. If you want evidence just look at the way that Baroness Warsi is discussed on here, which after all isn't the most deplorable site in the world.

Gary Farrimond

Nadine Horrors:- The left are just as culpable in ignoring the horrors meted on people by regimes that are left leaning as Paris Claims notes re the Holodomer

Robert, you and I have disagreed in the past, however, we at least agree that some on here are posting their hatred of the Jews, indeed the Nazis hated Christians too as well as Homosexuals. I do not hate Christians or anyone of faith. I am prepared to say I hate those that are prepared to ignore or defend those that support regimes that oppress, marginalize or murder those that they do not agree with. Paris Claims/Robert I salute you both for standing up for your beliefs against those that are not prepared to listen.

Dave Hollins MBA

Gary - You and Robert miss the point completely. I am not the one saying Hitler was not responsible. I was pointing out that Hitler never issued orders for their construction etc., but merely demanded that his officials got rid of these groups at a time when expulsion was impossible.

But how many times have you heard a minister, banker, any figure in authority say "not me, but the official below me"? It raises all kinds of questions about how far responsibility goes - whether for Napoleon for 3rd May (1808 by Goya) or the US leadership for war crimes committed at Fallujah with white phosphorus and mass killings of civilians or the many war crimes and breaches of ijternational law committed by the Jewish state against the Palestinians, esp in their Gaza "ghetto".

It is also unfortunate that Hitler's Thought Police have indeed returned in this country and people are threatened with jail for expressing their views. The lessons of the Nazis probably haven't actually been learned.

No, Robert, I don't need help - I am not the one making knee jerk responses.

Gary Farrimond

No we don't miss the point you do! Hitler knew what what
was going on and it has been proven numerous times!!! Despite your arguements to the contrary.

My Father lost the majority of his family in the Holocaust and endured that for the rest of his life. Hitler was well aware of what was going on, if you wish to believe to the contrary go right ahead, you delude noone but yourself

Dave Hollins MBA

I am not sure that it has been "proven" rather than asserted, but that is not what I said - your response is typical of the hysteria surrounding the issue. I said that Hitler set the policy, but there is no evidence that he sent any specific instructions about camps, etc. In my view, if you set the policy, you must be responsible for the main features of what is done - and that includes making the effort to inform yhourself. however, many politicians, bankers and others today will responsibility for what their underlings did - which implicitly means that they should be absolving Hitler of responsibility for the camps.

It is unfortunate that we cannot actually discuss the lessons of history without hysteria and name calling. Try to take a more mature approach to intellectual discussion. If you find it emotionally hard, it is better to stay out of it as your opinion is coloured by emotion.

Gary Farrimond

I wasn't aware that I had been hysterical or resorted to name calling, however, your comments are patronising and assume things about my character which I do find rather offensive.

I have informed myself about the history of World War 2 and Hitler's involvement in the death camps has been proven on numerous occasions but if you wish to take another view that is your right. However, please do not patronise others if they take a contrary view. My father was a ruined man by the actions of the SS in WW2 my opinon might well be tainted by as you call it emotion but also by a desire to get to the truth. You appear to say that those with involvement either directly or indirect should stay out of discussion, I can only guess at your motives but if you can't see the upset such a comment might cause you yourself should stay out of the discussion.

Please read Richard J Evans book 'Telling Lies About Hitler' its is a powerful and informed tome and highlights David Irving for what he is a racist, an antisemite, a Holocuast denier and a falsifer of history further he advances evidence to the extent of involvement of Hitler in the final solution, the mass murders either by shooting or gassing.

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